Round 1 - International Procar Meeting [Jan 13th]

Quote :

if you .....see that others are doing something, the prudent thing is either do the same or ask.

What about if you don't see it? I did not know (and could not know) that I was supposed to see something I had not seen or known of. Just as I could not follow rules that weren't actually in the rules.

If I had broken the rules I wouldn't quibble, but I didn't break the rules (as they were written). And now I am in the uncomfortable position of complaining about the injustice of being sanctioned because of a deficiency in the rules: I broke a rule that I didn't know about because it wasn't in the rules. It's simply unjust.

Regardless, last thing I wish to do is rock the boat, and there is a chance that real life will intervene anyway and I might have to be elsewhere. I know about the rule now and will be sure to try to do it all properly next time.

Happy racing!

OK so first of all Michael, let's get some things clear. You are most welcome to race here and in fact we gave you a car in the full year entry list over some other people that have raced here in the past with us, just because you have been attending races lately since you arrived, and been regular and well behaved on track. So it's not as I was there waiting till the clock ticked 20.00 to jump and take the car away from you, when I could easily have given someone else in the first place.

Now about the rules, you are quite new here (11 posts, from which actually three of them are about discussing with me about the rules) and I understand you might not be aware of our usual procedures, which again made me keep you in the car for the rest of the season, as you explained your issue well and had a point I recognized and accepted about the rules maybe not being clear enough. Not just that, I went and clarified them further in benefit of any other newcomer because it was the reasonable thing to do.

However, if we examine your reasoning from a technical point of view, there are some concepts you should probably reconsider.    

1) Breaking the rule is not the same as applying a rule's consequence. You break a rule when the rule forces you to do something or not do it (F.e. smoking not allowed), and that might have a consequence (Punishment). Whereas when the rule sets a consequence directly and won't impose you a behavior you are not technically breaking it, just getting the consequence set by that rule, which not necessarily is a sanction. All this goes to explain that you neither did break a rule, or got punished somehow. Not at all. So please don't go around thinking or saying you got punished or broke our rules, as neither is technically correct.

2) As I said already, you are quite new here and when someone is new somewhere, the proper thing is to be vigilant and watch what people do and learn from it. It was most evident that people were confirming presence in the race thread, and when by 20.00 saturday you had not, it's not just your "right" to keep the car for not understanding the rules as we apply them but also a collision with the "right" of people who do understand it to have a one off car as per our usual procedure. 

So you got no punishment (You kept the car for the season) but I applied the consequence of the car being one-off for those who were waiting, not for punishing you or annoying you. 

I know the rules are not perfect, I know I certainly am not perfect, but the reasonable solution at this point was the one I took, better or worse. I hope this post helps you understanding that besides my own and the rules imperfections, I acted at all times with good will and trying to get a middle ground between the interests in conflict. 

And now, let's get on with racing. 

All I am saying is that losing a drive for *not* breaking any rule (as written) seems simply unjust.

And I don't think I have a "right" to anything here. I surely never even suggested I did.

It isn't the end of world. No matter

Alberto Ibañez wrote:

You break a rule when the rule forces you to do something or not do it (F.e. smoking not allowed)

When you're mentioning it, is it confirmed that smoking is disallowed in Procars and if yes, how can I prevent it? I know how to do it in rFactor, but since I have only one race on AMS under my belt, I am not sure.

Making sure you do not run too much grill tape/to small a radiator opening. The principal is the same as rFactor.

Smoking is caused by the engine overheating, so make sure it stays cool enough.

So, the bigger grill tape means that engine have better cooling and also the car is a little slower overall, am I understand it right?

Lukáš Vydra wrote:

smoking is disallowed in Procars and if yes, how can I prevent it?

Well, guess that's it for me

I can't be forced into a car where I cannot smoke. Plus, it's the Marlboro car. The Marlboro man cannot smoke in his own car?

Oh, you were talking about the car itself? ...carry on then

Lukáš Vydra wrote:

So, the bigger grill tape means that engine have better cooling and also the car is a little slower overall, am I understand it right?

No, more grill tape means you are blocking air to the engine, so the engine will overheat more. You need lower grill tape to let more air get to the engine and keep it cool.

Richard Coxon wrote:

No, more grill tape means you are blocking air to the engine, so the engine will overheat more. You need lower grill tape to let more air get to the engine and keep it cool.

Oh, so it's basically the opposite of what rFactor has. Anyway, thanks for you advice

Michael Griffiths wrote:

All I am saying is that losing a drive for *not* breaking any rule (as written) seems simply unjust.

And I don't think I have a "right" to anything here.  I surely never even suggested I did.  

It isn't the end of world.   No matter  

A punishment is handed for a reprehensible conduct (One race suspension, exclusion from championship, ban from the league), and not confirming 24 hours before the race is not reprehensible but has a normal consequence for the good housekeeping of the league in that it becomes a one off ride. You did not break any rule, you did not get punished, you are not making any reasoning against that. I can accept and discuss arguments and reasons about my explanation being wrong, but personal impressions or opinions ("seems simply unjust") are not qualified to invalidate it. That something "seems" unjust to you in a personal subjective appreciation doesn't mean that it is, you are basically saying that you can't prove it's wrong but that you are angry with it anyway. You seem to be the kind of person who needs to have the last say, so go ahead alone because this is my last post dedicated to this question as I can't enter a discussion as admin about personal feelings or impressions. 

Quote :

When you're mentioning it, is it confirmed that smoking is disallowed in Procars and if yes, how can I prevent it? I know how to do it in rFactor, but since I have only one race on AMS under my belt, I am not sure.

Throw your Marlboro or whatever make cigarettes down the toilet and flush it. For increased security you can also throw away your lighter, but taping with duct your mouth and nose is probably safer.

Alberto Ibañez wrote:

Throw your Marlboro or whatever make cigarettes down the toilet and flush it. For increased security you can also throw away your lighter, but taping with duct your mouth and nose is probably safer.

You know I didn't mean cigarettes

I was not sure if you were making a joke 

Alberto Ibañez wrote:

I was not sure if you were making a joke 

No, I was just making sure, if cars with bad engine-cooling aren't welcomed on track and how to prevent it. Next time, I'll try to more specify my questions

Wooops....this is partly (a considerable part) my fault. Mike, for reasons better known to himself, is a mate of mine, and it was I who dragged him, kicking and screaming into HSO. Also, I have tried to make a point of telling him every thing he needs to know. However, this one slipped my mind.

And seeing how Petr was getting so enthusiastic, I am more than willing to give up my drive for this race to Petr or Mike.

Also, ALberto, I can absolutely without any doubt say, that Mike is not "the sort of person" who has to have the last word. He is just expressing what he has infront of him, without self interest as a priority. This is his 3rd league race. He got me into simracing 20 years ago.

Top Kudos for how eloquently out your point is though. (nothing underhand/passive aggressive here)

Since JM hasnt contacted me, Im confirming my atendance tonight.

Again, thank you for looking through my (out) fingers!

Mick Chapman wrote:

Wooops....this is partly (a considerable part) my fault.  Mike, for reasons better known to himself, is a mate of mine, and it was I who dragged him, kicking and screaming into HSO. Also, I have tried to make a point of telling him every thing he needs to know. However, this one slipped my mind.

And seeing how Petr was getting so enthusiastic, I am more than willing to give up my drive for this race to Petr or Mike.

Also, ALberto, I can absolutely without any doubt say, that Mike is not "the sort of person" who has to have the last word. He is just expressing what he has infront of him, without self interest as a priority. This is his 3rd league race. He got me into simracing 20 years ago.

Top Kudos for how eloquently out your point is though. (nothing underhand/passive aggressive here)

No problem at all Mick as I said he is most welcome to race here, I hope I did not sound annoying but we are in the busiest part of the year sorting out entry lists and kickstarting championships and I have to move on 

Sound too annoying? not at all........not half as annoyed as what I will be getting in my other ear,

Yep, totaly understand the busy behind the scenes aspect. Easy to take for grandit. It took a while for me to really start appreciating the work involved.

...and it would irritate the f out of me when drivers would leave it til last minute(hours before race) to confirm whether they raced or not. even when it did not effect me.

So, can I offer my drive to Petr/Mike for this race (I have not heard from Mike today.......yet.

Normally a one off should be offered to everybody, but given that only two people were interested and have a car already as well as the special circumstances around this situation you can exceptionally arrange with Michael if he drives instead of you this race yes.

Thx. I have dispatched my envoy/messenger......yet to hear back. (said messenger, will arrive before race, but there are about 45 pubs on the way. make of that, what you will

And on an on track issue, I tried changing left side tires only in pits during free practice.....not happening.

The official server is now set for today's race. Qualifying starts at 20h00 Paris time.

just saw that i didnt confirm for race. Was too excited of getting a car last sunday and getting all ready instead of confirming first. Can i join for warm up to see whether a car would be occasionally be free?

You can, but if nothing appears you will have to leave before the race starts.

Jan Kowalski wrote:

just saw that i didnt confirm for race. Was too excited of getting a car last sunday and getting all ready instead of confirming first. Can i join for warm up to see whether a car would be occasionally be free?

As if you had not raced here before 

Still no sign of Mike G. I'll circulate, til he turns up and hand the car over if/when he turns up, if that is ok?