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 Round 2 - Sebring

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finally gone :)
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PostSubject: Re: Round 2 - Sebring   Fri 4 Jun 2010 - 0:47

Yeah, unfair penalty methinks. He didn't gain 30s by cutting the corner, he gained maybe a tenth at most.
I think that the proper penalty would be to give him a 0.1s penalty, that would be fair :jp:

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Carl Larrad
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PostSubject: Re: Round 2 - Sebring   Fri 4 Jun 2010 - 7:45

Steve Parker wrote:
I need to get a new car with a big target painted on the rear :bangry:
OMG Steve loving the new avatar that should do the trick .. Wink

And maybe this might be a good one for not so good driver of the week Wink


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Ludovic Tiengou
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PostSubject: Re: Round 2 - Sebring   Fri 4 Jun 2010 - 8:19

Quite a famous picture than this one...but it could be a fake as all japanese aircrew used to wear headband during their flight. For instance Fushida the leader of the attack on Pearl Harbour was wearing one quite similar. And by no way did he meaned to crash his plane (he wasn't in fact the pilot but the navigator...an oddity in Japanese Navy where many officers weren't the pilot. It was the NCO who were more than often)
So the rising sun headband wasn't a speciality of special assault team (the true name of kamikaze).

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Carlo Pozzi
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PostSubject: Re: Round 2 - Sebring   Fri 4 Jun 2010 - 13:58

Sorry for not explaining my version yesterday, but i was away from home all day..

I didn't brake too late at T11 on the last lap, i always braked very late at that corner and i always gained something for all the race.
I was turning on the apex, but Gui, who had only the front tyres ahead of mine, pushed me onto the grass and i was forced to cut that corner slightly to avoid a contact, after this and after the race i thought that only the inside tyres were on the grass, but after reviewing the replay several times, i realized that all of them were off the track.

I didn't let you pass Gui because my first impression was different from the one that effectively happened.

Guillaume Siebert wrote:

He choosed to always close the door coming to every turns when I was close to him. This is allowed but not really what I call fair play, not really the spirit of the league I must say. I'm ok with that since it doesn't create accidents

What i should do? Letting you pass easily on the inside????
And i always changed line only once!!
0.1 sec or 30 secs time penalty didn't change the story so much, but i didn't like the way it was given, penalties should not be decided by people involved on an accident (also if they are admins..).

Anyway, it was one of the best defensive races i've ever made and it was really fun, but mentally a very hard one.

See you at Road Atlanta!
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Guillaume Siebert
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PostSubject: Re: Round 2 - Sebring   Fri 4 Jun 2010 - 14:15

Carlo Pozzi wrote:

What i should do? Letting you pass easily on the inside????
And i always changed line only once!!

As I said, that's allowed, and as long as its clean, that's fine for me. Its just that constantly blocking somebody faster than you during a 2 hours race (ok I wasn't 2 hours right behind you) is not what I call fair play that's all. I would never do that. I have been probably too gentle since the beginning of the year regarding this kind of behaviour, and I might need to muscle my driving a bit.

Just to give you an idea of what I call intense but fair play racing, you can download the replay of both DTM races last year at Brno for example.

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Frank Verplanken
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PostSubject: Re: Round 2 - Sebring   Fri 4 Jun 2010 - 14:51

I'll give my opinion on this as I think it is an important matter. There are two aspects to this : 1) the on-track incident in itself 2) Gui's unilateral decision to penalize Carlo.

After reviewing the replay my sincere objective opinion is that Carlo did not deserve a penalty for his move. It was a beautiful duel, Carlo led all race and I'm 100% sure that if he had done the same move on Gui on lap 3 and had followed that with the same defence as he did Wednesday Gui wouldn't have thought of penalizing him. Also, Carlo did have 4 wheels on the grass for a moment but that was for something like a tenth of a second really - not "cutting the track" for me. Moreover moves such as Carlo's happen around a dozen times per race imho and I saw some crashes in the Sebring replay that, ultimately, would be more worthy of a penalty than the Carlo/Gui thingy.

Having said that I am not for ultra-policing of the races. I prefer trying to establish and promote a gentleman spirit among us all which usually makes cop type moderation useless. And worked fine since we started HSO. The only times we've had problems with moderation is precisely when we tried to do a traditionnal moderation job for the DTM last year. It's always the same : announce a moderation system with complaints, reviews and penalties and all of a sudden half the field thinks he was an innocent victim in the last race and starts to complain, ...etc. Lame.

Now I must also say that Gui's decision is maybe partly due to the accumulation of little episodes involving Carlo. Carlo you are fast, very fast, a great addition to our league and a member I look up to. But sometimes I just wish you were a little more kind on the track. I like aggresive driving style, no worries. Your 2-hour duel with Gui in Sebring was just excellent stuff to watch, and again I don't think it deserved a penalty. But then in other races this year there have been a few incidents in which you were involved that need to be talked about imho. For instance I think we had two collisions in Procar this year, and at least the Monaco one which I remember clearly was just a simple fact of you spinning me out while I was in front of you. Nothing in itself, it happens, and if you did not wait on the spot (I don't always do that myself - see Sebring - we all know how it's like) you did apologize afterwards. There have been quite a few controversial incidents between Gui and you this year too. So my all point was that we should have issued you a formal warning since a while back which maybe would have soften things a bit without upsetting you or making you go slower (I even think it would have motivated you more than an unfair penalty).

This brings me to aspect #2 (are you still following me :D ?) of the non-incident. Despite the opinion of Antoine and I, Gui decided to penalize Carlo. HSO was not set up as a democratic system where majority wins over minority. It is a unanimity system, and every decision has always been taken when all admins agreed. This is for every aspect of the league, from the creation of champs, to the running of races, general aspect of the site, ...etc. The consensus is the way to go and although it emplies a lot of talking and debating it's the only one that allows us admins to speak of one voice - the basis for an admin team from my point of view.

On this one occasion Gui decided to do as if this rule did not exist and I find it rather sad. I also find it sad that he overlooked the plain simple rule of logics that says you cannot be at the same time judge and victim of a racing incident, which we always have sticked too. Even if Carlo had voluntarily crashed into Gui I still would think it would not be Gui who should decide and announce the penalty such an incident would deserve.

Now, we all make mistakes. I often make some so maybe that's why it's easy for me to admit I did one :D . Gui doesn't often make mistakes so maybe that's why it's hard for him to admit he did one... Anyways I think admin decisions, even if evidently wrong, should stand when called. So I'm not asking Gui to revert it. But I hope one day he'll admit he was wrong Razz !

Sorry for the length of this.
:frank:
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Thomas Cazorla
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PostSubject: Re: Round 2 - Sebring   Fri 4 Jun 2010 - 16:32

Tu m'en veux Frank si je zappe ton !message? Laughing

Ouai bon, c'était couillu comme baston, mais dans les limites acceptables, du moins par rapport ce que je peux voir ailleurs (hier soir par exemple en clio, ou lŕ c'est violent et zéro fair-play).

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Tiago Malafaya
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PostSubject: Re: Round 2 - Sebring   Fri 4 Jun 2010 - 18:57

Frank Verplanken wrote:
Sorry for the length of this. :frank:

Man, I fell asleep reading this, fortunately I woke up to read the rest lol!

HSO is starting to become FIA lol!

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Sasha Sosnowski
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PostSubject: Re: Round 2 - Sebring   Sun 6 Jun 2010 - 15:50

Wow, controversy at HSO? Not possible!

Well I wasn't there or anything, I can only take the stance that victims (whether admins or not) should not be allowed to judge decisions.

I'm also surprised with Frank's comments as to Carlo because I never experienced anything but fair, hard driving with Carlo. In the fact the only time I thought I had seen something aggressive out of him was in the DTM race at Hock, but it turned out to be JP! So this all comes as a bit of a shock to me. But maybe it's not my place.

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Frank Verplanken
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PostSubject: Re: Round 2 - Sebring   Sun 6 Jun 2010 - 15:56

No worries Sasha, everybody is free to speak is mind at HSO Wink .
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Tiago Malafaya
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PostSubject: Re: Round 2 - Sebring   Sun 6 Jun 2010 - 16:35

Frank Verplanken wrote:
No worries Sasha, everybody is free to speak is mind at HSO Wink .

I thought this wasn't a democracy :regl: :rigol:

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Frank Verplanken
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PostSubject: Re: Round 2 - Sebring   Sun 6 Jun 2010 - 16:49

It's not Razz . It's a virtual post-libertarian cosmopolitan community of simracing gentlemen. Closest thing to heaven if you ask me :D . Where reason always triumph over ignorance and where fraternity is not just a word written on coins and bills. Plus, we get to time travel which is more than any democracy in this world can do for you Razz .
:frank:
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