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 Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.

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Gabriele Maruca
Club Driver
Gabriele Maruca

Number of posts : 79
Age : 27
Location : Latina, Italy
Registration date : 2013-12-06

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun 17 Feb 2019 - 23:44

Alberto Ibañez wrote:
Hi mate

I did not change anything in the pressures as far as I know  scratch

Maybe I did some copy paste that changed it, but it was unintended  :hum:


No worries Alberto, already fixed it Wink

Alberto Ibañez wrote:

That should not happen, if the tires move around wildly it's because you did not correctly implement all suspension rods, and the wheels are not fixed properly. 

Fixed by lowering the CISH value to 0.12-0.11, the car stopped being so jittery Wink
Another thing I noticed is that the De Dion tube (as it was modeled by Kangaloosh and your version too) pretty much needs the fast bump and rebound, or the car starts to act like a Pogo stick, bouncing wildly all over the place. While it's funny to see, I don't think it's realistic  lol!... got a confirmation of this by looking at your Maserati in the '37 Mod: commented out the fast settings and boom, here she goes, an 80-years-old lady behaving like a toddler on a sugar rush  :rigol: .

Alberto Ibañez wrote:

It probably needs some less suspension travel. One thing about rfactor is, the tracks are absolutely smooth unlike in real life, so suspension seems conceived for modern formula one with less than 2 cms of travel on silky smooth surfaces. I was once in the Valencia F1 circuit after they disassembled it and was absolutely amazed at the pavement ... smoother than my desk table, really  Shocked  The F1 guys won't race in anything else, (except Monaco :D )  it's incredible compared to a normal road, no wonder they can go down to such precision. 

But, classic cars on open roads are obviously somethiny VERY different  Rolling Eyes

Ah, the "Bowling track" theorem, as it was explained by Doug Arnao:

"No matter how much you make a track realistic, it'll always be smoother than a bowling track when compared to the real one."
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Alberto Ibañez
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Alberto Ibañez

Number of posts : 16739
Age : 47
Location : Valencia - Spain
Registration date : 2010-09-17

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon 18 Feb 2019 - 9:40

Quote :
Fixed by lowering the CISH value to 0.12-0.11, the car stopped being so jittery

What is the CISH?

Quote :
Another thing I noticed is that the De Dion tube (as it was modeled by Kangaloosh and your version too) pretty much needs the fast bump and rebound, or the car starts to act like a Pogo stick, bouncing wildly all over the place

Mine's and Kangaloosh differ a lot, mine works like the real thing at least in these cars whereas kangaloosh placed a hugely long rod on one side to provide the lateral location in as close to a perfect vertical motion as possible, but as a result generated forces like 10 metres to the right of the car which is odd. My own watts linkeage puts the forces in the chassis close to where the torque arms do, as it should be.

And I don't know about kangaloosh, but you can be sure that my suspension does not need the fast bump at all. Look at the Mercedes W125, it is NOT using fast bump/rebound, it has only the slow one as it represents better the friction dampers used. So it obviously does not need it.

Quote :
got a confirmation of this by looking at your Maserati in the '37 Mod

My Maserati is NOT using the De Dion with Watts linkeage

I think that when mixing my suspensions with your files at some point you got errors. The situations you described are clearly either not properly defining joints or arms in the suspension (Wheels moving around doing crazy things) or not having properly disabled the fast speed bump/rebound (Pogo bouncing mode in the cars). In your original files there was fast bumping only in the rears, in the fronts the transition speed was so high that even if there were fast speed dampers they never came to play.

I will have a look at your Maserati 1958 this week and come up with my vision of it as I did with the Porsche, and I will also revise the slip angle curves for the tire using Ricardo's ones, which are much better. Will report when I have it ready so you can have a look. study

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Gabriele Maruca
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Gabriele Maruca

Number of posts : 79
Age : 27
Location : Latina, Italy
Registration date : 2013-12-06

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon 18 Feb 2019 - 9:54

Alberto Ibañez wrote:

What is the CISH?

Corrected Inner Suspension Height. According to Bristow:

"CorrectedInnerSuspHeight (CISH) resets the height of the origin for the vertical location of the inner suspension points. The value is the vertical distance of that point above the reference plane. The reference plane is the bottom of the body as defined by the ride height.

Setting CISH to any value other than -1 attaches the inner suspension points to the body. Changes in RideHeight then take the inner points up or down with the body, which is more like what happens with real cars. Setting CISH = -1 delivers the 'original behaviour', which is to fix the inner suspension points relative to the static wheel locations defined in the pm. They stay there even if you move the body up and down.

The "original behaviour" uses the wheel radius to set the height above the ground of the line through the axles at each end of the car. The "centre" of that line is used as the (0.0, 0.0, 0.0) point for the pm file. The height above ground of that point is then reduced by the ride height to get the value for the original InnerSuspHeight which delivers the "original behaviour".

This gets a bit tricky when the wheels have different radii between front and rear and/or the ride heights are different. Also I observe that the origin for the pm is not usually at the geometric centre of the wheelbase for cars with uneven weight distributions, but close to the longitudinal position of the Centre of Gravity. So I presume we should adjust for those factors.

In any event, once the value which reproduces the "original behaviour" has been calculated, presumably one can place a bigger or smaller value in CorrectedInnerSuspHeight and move the inner points of the suspension arms up or down by the difference. Much nicer than having to recalculate the pm if you lower the car. Makes lowering as part of an upgrade much easier to handle."



Alberto Ibañez wrote:


Mine's and Kangaloosh differ a lot, mine works like the real thing at least in these cars whereas kangaloosh placed a hugely long rod on one side to provide the lateral location in as close to a perfect vertical motion as possible, but as a result generated forces like 10 metres to the right of the car which is odd. My own watts linkeage puts the forces in the chassis close to where the torque arms do, as it should be.

And I don't know about kangaloosh, but you can be sure that my suspension does not need the fast bump at all. Look at the Mercedes W125, it is NOT using fast bump/rebound, it has only the slow one as it represents better the friction dampers used. So it obviously does not need it.

[...]

My Maserati is NOT using the De Dion with Watts linkeage

I think that when mixing my suspensions with your files at some point you got errors. The situations you described are clearly either not properly defining joints or arms in the suspension (Wheels moving around doing crazy things) or not having properly disabled the fast speed bump/rebound (Pogo bouncing mode in the cars). In your original files there was fast bumping only in the rears, in the fronts the transition speed was so high that even if there were fast speed dampers they never came to play.

I will have a look at your Maserati 1958 this week and come up with my vision of it as I did with the Porsche, and I will also revise the slip angle curves for the tire using Ricardo's ones, which are much better. Will report when I have it ready so you can have a look. study

[/quote]

Oh. Well... I sure do feel like a dolt now :aie: , I thought the Maserati was using the De Dion bridge (but it used a live axle) and the Mercedes was using swing axles with torsion bar correctors... which was obviously wrong now that I had another look at the schematics. Embarassed

So, essentially you modeled the Live axle as rF would, but the De Dion linkage is a M-shaped connection with 3 points on the rear axle and the other two pretty much a sixth of the wheelbase shy from the middle. It's really ingenious :D

I'm really grateful for your help, Alberto... I hope I'm not bothering you too much with my mistakes ^^;
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Alberto Ibañez
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Alberto Ibañez

Number of posts : 16739
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Registration date : 2010-09-17

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon 18 Feb 2019 - 10:37

Quote :
Corrected Inner Suspension Height. According to Bristow:

Leave that thing at -1, it's not worth playing with it, too many complications for something that is not worth it. As an example, your suspension should work already with it at -1 (In fact that is how it should work best as it matches what you designed on paper perfectly), so you are now masking something that was previously wrong by moving the geometry with the CISH to a place where it works. That should not happen at all.

I also liked to use adjustable ride heights as in real cars some time ago, but Ricardo convinced me that unless we are talking ground effect open wheelers or oval racers it's pointless in rfactor and only causes trouble. You see, the tracks are so smooth that you gain nothing by raising the car and the limitations of the damping calculations inside a commercial PC mean that the most effective thing is always to run at lowest possible ride height even if that means riding on the bumpstops. I have seen dozens of mods where the cars were faster riding on the bumpstops as if they were ice skating but the lowering of the Center of Gravity more than compensates that because as far as I can tell, we have no real tire lateral thrust connection to the roll centers, and those have an effect that is mostly related to weight transfer and not to how the tires work on the surface, which seems to be calculated separately on a simplified set of parameters (Only camber, load and slip angle).

Fix the ride heigth of your cars where you think it's appropiate and forget about it, in the late 50s nobody had cars hugging the ground on stiff suspensions so a 2cms ride heigth margin means nothing in rfactor terms and only complicates things for you.

Quote :
I thought the Maserati was using the De Dion bridge (but it used a live axle) and the Mercedes was using swing axles with torsion bar correctors... which was obviously wrong now that I had another look at the schematics

The Maserati uses my approach to leaf springs, which are not simulated in rFactor, but I do with a 4 link system that allows some lateral play at least when rolling (Though real leaf springs flex under lateral load even if the car is not rolling, but you can't do that in rFactor). So there is no track bar because the fake leaf springs already locate the axis laterally.

The Mercedes uses a normal Solid axle with De Dion tubing (Much lighter mass and attached to the Watts linkeage lower and behind the wheels center line) with two standard torque arms and then two radius rods that allow only vertical movement in perfect axis center line (Those act as Watts linkeage), having the axle pivot around their joint in roll.

Quote :
the De Dion linkage is a M-shaped connection with 3 points

It's more an "V"

The other two rods in the "M" are the normal loose torque arms. They would move laterally unless there is a track bar or, as in this case, the V that allows only pitch motion.

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Gabriele Maruca
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Gabriele Maruca

Number of posts : 79
Age : 27
Location : Latina, Italy
Registration date : 2013-12-06

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon 18 Feb 2019 - 13:50

Alberto Ibañez wrote:


Leave that thing at -1, it's not worth playing with it, too many complications for something that is not worth it. As an example, your suspension should work already with it at -1 (In fact that is how it should work best as it matches what you designed on paper perfectly), so you are now masking something that was previously wrong by moving the geometry with the CISH to a place where it works. That should not happen at all.

I also liked to use adjustable ride heights as in real cars some time ago, but Ricardo convinced me that unless we are talking ground effect open wheelers or oval racers it's pointless in rfactor and only causes trouble. You see, the tracks are so smooth that you gain nothing by raising the car and the limitations of the damping calculations inside a commercial PC mean that the most effective thing is always to run at lowest possible ride height even if that means riding on the bumpstops. I have seen dozens of mods where the cars were faster riding on the bumpstops as if they were ice skating but the lowering of the Center of Gravity more than compensates that because as far as I can tell, we have no real tire lateral thrust connection to the roll centers, and those have an effect that is mostly related to weight transfer and not to how the tires work on the surface, which seems to be calculated separately on a simplified set of parameters (Only camber, load and slip angle).

Fix the ride heigth of your cars where you think it's appropiate and forget about it, in the late 50s nobody had cars hugging the ground on stiff suspensions so a 2cms ride heigth margin means nothing in rfactor terms and only complicates things for you.

Thanks Alberto, I've had another go at the files and I've noticed that the tyres were properly mounted, but the spindles were 2 cm forward, causing an outwards-directed momentum that caused the tyres themselves to flip around when under traction. To test it, I've set the CISH to -1 and used the modified PM file... et voilà! The problem was gone.

I really have to thank you about that: it took me a while to understand what you meant with "Tires not attached properly", but I think I've figured it out ^^;


Quote :


It's more an "V"

The other two rods in the "M" are the normal loose torque arms. They would move laterally unless there is a track bar or, as in this case, the V that allows only pitch motion.

Basically you've used the two radii of the rods and set them in such a way that the only movement possible would be straight up/down.

It's really simple, yet effective. :clap:
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Michal Janak
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Michal Janak

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Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue 19 Feb 2019 - 17:09

tested only Ferrari at old Mosport, great car, and very good sounds :top:

_________________
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Status: Retired

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Gabriele Maruca
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Gabriele Maruca

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun 24 Feb 2019 - 11:20

Next week a new patch will appear: there'll be quite a lot to unpack Wink
I really have to thank all of you, Alberto the most Smile :drink:
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François Remmen
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François Remmen

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun 24 Feb 2019 - 11:42

awesome Gabriele!

To help you i was trying to make contact with our "Dad" tire guru
Dave Purdy but i was knocking on heavens door
after google him i found on F1sr website that he passed away almost 2 years ago at the age of 71, i did'nt know that and i feel so sad.
he made us the 1965 tires which remains his legacy
a big loss of a great human , may he rest in piece :chinois:


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Gabriele Maruca
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Gabriele Maruca

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu 28 Feb 2019 - 23:18

Alberto, Jason and all of HSO: I can only do a single thing to express my gratitude. I hope you'll like this patch Smile

https://mega.nz/#!PsMR3YaR!TfvXSS9PnVAl9RvLtU2-Vw8Ak7YfIOfIYKjmyhKkyD8

Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.tenor
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François Remmen
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François Remmen

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 1 Mar 2019 - 18:45

Gab

notes
For all cars now
and not sure this is intented

in garage setup the Trackbar right is 5.0 and
the left is kept at 0.0 , its locked scratch

the toe in and toe out are for ALL car the same and locked scratch


the diff settings is locked now with all car use 50% power scratch

result : all cars pulling to the right now mainly because of the locked trackbar

pls check





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Gabriele Maruca
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Gabriele Maruca

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 1 Mar 2019 - 19:20

François Remmen wrote:
Gab

notes
For all cars now
and not sure this is intented

in garage setup the Trackbar right is 5.0 and
the left is kept at 0.0 , its locked  scratch

the toe in and toe out are for ALL car the same and locked   scratch


the diff  settings  is  locked now with all car use 50% power  scratch

result : all cars pulling to the right now mainly because of the locked trackbar

pls check


Yeah, the trackbar was wrong, I've re-uploaded a better version of the patch to put an end to that.

About the toe in and out (as well as the differential), those were set up in the project and were very unlikely to be changed on track: as a matter of fact, those parameters usually changed only if a new car was to be developed.

Have a look at Page 1, post n°3 or just download from this link Smile
https://mega.nz/#!mgl0XA5Z!ZStwBruRDqpwZ-GwDiD3j6GCsB40h-0lnSywrg3NALI
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Richard Wilks
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Richard Wilks

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Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 1 Mar 2019 - 19:37

Toe was hard or actually impossible to adjust with solid axles, usually requiring a major redesign yes.

Adjustable differentials didn't exist until the late 70s in F1, or possibly even later.

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François Remmen
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François Remmen

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 1 Mar 2019 - 21:41

its awesome now
a new gem for rfactor cheers

@richard very true , testing 2 mods of different era's same time my brain need to reprogrammed :hihi:

is it possible to implement a test race with it in a open event ?

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Alberto Ibañez
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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat 2 Mar 2019 - 11:02

Nice one, need to to find some time to test more in depth but so far very good vibes :top:

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Gabriele Maruca
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Gabriele Maruca

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon 18 Mar 2019 - 21:59

So... what do you think about the patch? Is it in the right direction? Smile
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Alberto Ibañez
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Alberto Ibañez

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue 19 Mar 2019 - 14:14

Yes it is, sadly I have been busy with other stuff and also out of town for some days but I want to give it a proper shakedown soon  Smile

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Gabriele Maruca
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Gabriele Maruca

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue 18 Jun 2019 - 20:46

Hi all! Smile

I've uploaded two new patches for the mod, this time the brakes have been recalibrated a little and I've softened the front suspensions by 4-6 N/mm to mitigate the heavy understeer and brake locking.

Soon I'll upload an "All-in-one" version with everything in it, to give a more hassle-free experience Wink

Patch 4.0 (N°4) - https://mega.nz/#!SlFk2AxQ!qgBR1E2ZMTwYNHPBE8qHuVkc_aqlCHNz5KKHzVAcFaQ
Patch 4.02 (N°5) - https://mega.nz/#!P1MngKrb!0FJZ475vZ_niknGRVNQPlcuUHSMWM-cbX-OSRZlEzTo

FULL VERSION HERE - https://mega.nz/#!TtcAEABQ!quUtWBzy-Xb4YTjJDUyqyL19m6GmnWdCEjLtNgw0l_s
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Alberto Ibañez
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Alberto Ibañez

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed 19 Jun 2019 - 8:39

Doh I'm lagging so much behind these things it is appalling ... been so busy with HSO stuff I had forgotten about this.

Anyways, I am in the process of developing a model for simulating a solid axle on leaf springs for another project I have, so I will let you know when I have it ready, it might be useful for you Smile

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Gabriele Maruca
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Gabriele Maruca

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed 19 Jun 2019 - 20:44

Alberto Ibañez wrote:
Doh I'm lagging so much behind these things it is appalling ... been so busy with HSO stuff I had forgotten about this.

Anyways, I am in the process of developing a model for simulating a solid axle on leaf springs for another project I have, so I will let you know when I have it ready, it might be useful for you Smile

No worries mate, I've been lagging too behind my own projects too... lol!

You're always too kind, mate: I appreciate the thought Smile
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Gabriele Maruca
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Gabriele Maruca

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu 31 Oct 2019 - 12:55

This is the latest release of the mod: sadly it's only available as a complete package because I had to change a lot of stuff in the meantime, so a "patch" package couldn't be done :/

I hope you'll appreciate Smile

https://mega.nz/#!DwEmWazS!x4tmakMqFfYncGxn2NE8iaNZZ1FyfyOYrj83NVqwdtE
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Alberto Ibañez
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Alberto Ibañez

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu 31 Oct 2019 - 15:11

What's new Gabriele, can you copy the changelog here?  Smile

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Gabriele Maruca
Club Driver
Gabriele Maruca

Number of posts : 79
Age : 27
Location : Latina, Italy
Registration date : 2013-12-06

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu 31 Oct 2019 - 23:33

Alberto Ibañez wrote:
What's new Gabriele, can you copy the changelog here?  Smile

Sorry, forgot to do that ^^;

Code:
- Changed the Maserati Lineup
- Fixed Ferrari's suspension lines, now the Watt's Linkage works again.
- Brake drums now can rotate
- Only Hawthorn's Ferrari has both brake drums and discs.
- Fixed the Borrani Wheels.
- Changed Ferrari Sounds for a better fitting set.
- Changed Maserati Sounds for a better fitting set.
- Changed Vanwall Sounds for a better fitting set.
- Made the tyres collideable via GEN editing.
- Changed draw distances for LODs to improve performances
- Fixed tyres in the spinner
- Fixed the over-revving issue for the BRM
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François Remmen
Pro Driver
François Remmen

Number of posts : 868
Age : 39
Location : Netherlands
Registration date : 2012-12-22

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri 1 Nov 2019 - 18:51

A Absolute Masterpiece my friend!


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Gabriele Maruca
Club Driver
Gabriele Maruca

Number of posts : 79
Age : 27
Location : Latina, Italy
Registration date : 2013-12-06

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat 2 Nov 2019 - 10:27

A small hotfix, just overwrite on the 4.12 installation. Sorry for having missed these ^^;

https://mega.nz/#!j91RzSjQ!ehvHfVuC31BxSMPnyJSNbxU72-hw0nbdPotWCyjXYUU

Code:

- Corrected Behra's Maserati in the Kavanagh team, now it's a proper 250 Leggera.
- Corrected Allison's Maserati in the Scuderia Centro Sud team, now it's a 250 Leggera with T1/56 physics.
- Corrected Shelby's Maserati in the Scuderia Centro Sud team, now it's a 250 Leggera with T1/56 physics.
- Allison's and Shelby's SCS cars are labeled T1/56M to underline the fact that those were T1/56s with a "Leggera" bodywork.
- Fixed Hawthorn's Ferrari brake disc description.
- Reinstated the v4.02 Temple Buell livery.
- Changed Maserati's sounds to a more fitting suite.
- Fixed the ferrari wheel, now it hasn't got the purple haze.
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Alberto Ibañez
Racing Legend
Alberto Ibañez

Number of posts : 16739
Age : 47
Location : Valencia - Spain
Registration date : 2010-09-17

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun 3 Nov 2019 - 14:56

Cool to see you are still on top of it, updating and improving it  :top:

What are your next plans now?  Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M.   Formula One 1958 [RF1] by O.R.M. - Page 2 Icon_minitime

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