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Frank Verplanken
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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Thu 18 May 2017 - 18:50

David Jundt wrote:
Even Enduracers apparently completely fucked up their mods with unrealistic inertia data, as you seem to be able to slide through turns with tyres over 200°C and still get away with it(as in tyres barely wearing due to constant heat).

So even the "pros" of modding face issues.

I was just speaking of the 3D aspect, this being pretty much a spec field Wink.

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Michael Drechsler
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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Thu 18 May 2017 - 18:58

One aspect is, while back in the days, people could build a car in their backyard and be or be not competitive with that, technology has risen to a level where just building a chassis is nothing one is able to do on his own. Just alone the needed machinery for working with modern composites make it unfeasible to even attempt that. On the other hand, with a sheet metal bender (second hand some 1000€), a riveter, some other basic tools and access to aircraft aluminium, as a skilled metal worker, I'm basically able to built a '70s/'80s style monocoque. Hand laminating some basic bodywork from GRP is something I think I might as well be able to do. But attempting the same using carbon fibres? Fugetaboutit...

And then, we haven't looked into what the governing bodies demand in the meantime considering safety. Which demands certifications on many parts of the production process and raises the whole thing to an industrial level...

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Alberto Ibañez
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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Thu 18 May 2017 - 19:08

You can easily buy chassis from previos years at reasonable prices, but then you have to put an engine on it.

Look at our 1988 mod, there are several old chassis (86C, 87C, T87) with stock block engines and such. That won't happen nowadays because of the rules, and yet those frankenstein cars never had a real chance so it' s not as if the problem was rendering obsolte or uncompetitive the latest machinery that had cost more money to the top teams. Until the mercedosaurus rex that Penske pulled out of nowhere, of course, but then again the put a shitload of money on that which nowadays will simply not be there.

Now let people try to qualify with a turbocharged 5.7 litres Corvette engine on the back of a two years old chassis, and the qeue to sign up will go on for miles.

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Petr Hlavac
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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Thu 18 May 2017 - 19:36


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Frank Verplanken
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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Thu 18 May 2017 - 19:42

Alberto Ibañez wrote:
Now let people try to qualify with a turbocharged 5.7 litres Corvette engine on the back of a two years old chassis, and the qeue to sign up will go on for miles.

Indeed ! Indy already did that back during the great Depresion, introducing what became known as the "Junk Formula" because you could build a car for next to nothing by buying most of its elements (including engine) in junkyards. Of course the top teams still build some top of the line craftsmen made racers, but you could indeed build an Indy Spl. in your garden on your spare time too. The fields tripled in size, some big auto manufacturers got involved in the sport and many a great future driver got his chance at big time racing thanks to it.

Having the Indy cars of nowadays made from scrap of current road cars is not such a great prospect I agree :D, but I know I would have been watching the 500 this year if it had been held with oversized USAC Sprint Cars Cool !

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Petr Hlavac
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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Thu 18 May 2017 - 19:42

I really enjoy your discussion. To add my two cents, 70s and 80s were cool from the innovation point of view. On the other hand, there were not many cars able to fight for victory and many were running obsolete machinery. For me, it can't get any better than mid 90s. Five chassis manufacturers, four engines, Tyre war between two companies, yet nobody was terribly off the pace. I loved that era, don't think I'll ever see anything better than that.

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Alberto Ibañez
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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Thu 18 May 2017 - 21:08

Quote :
you could build a car for next to nothing by buying most of its elements (including engine) in junkyards

Well with the driving level on the current Indy series, you will likely be able to build a 2016 specs car from junkyard parts soon. :D

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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Thu 18 May 2017 - 21:50

Alberto Ibañez wrote:
Well with the driving level on the current Indy series, you will likely be able to build a 2016 specs car from junkyard parts soon. :D

C'mon Alberto, there are many things to complain about in current Indycar, but the depth of driver's field isn't one of them Wink

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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Thu 18 May 2017 - 23:19

Today's highlights:

- Honda is fast, 4 of 5 fastest cars without a tow are powered by Honda (Sato at the top), the same for overall speed chart.
- Honda blows up. After Rahal's failure, another Honda bites the dust (Bourdais). It doesn't mean much, as everybody will get a fresh engine for the race, but... has Alonso brought Honda's F1 reputation to Indycar? Wink
- Happy hour was highly entertaining, lots of preparation for the race (speeds around 222mph)
- The first major crash with Newgarden at the wheel of his Penske car
- Lazier finally turned a lap. A single one...

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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Thu 18 May 2017 - 23:42

The main problem is not the cost of building anything per se. It's the current "corporate crap" racing environment. EVERYTHING must be "off the shelf" and as much specced as possible.

Dallara are making big money out of it, and they make sure they reward the people in charge of the "sport" accordingly. That's how motorsports go on about these days. Look at rallying, or touring cars, a bunch of spec transmissions and all that balanced by performance so it all gets nice and "cheap" and the parts manufacturers can keep their monopolies.


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Michael Drechsler
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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Fri 19 May 2017 - 0:16

Well, all safety-relevant parts have to comply to strict standards, for the decision to design your own parts, lets say a fuel tank, testing and certifying them, the costs that come with that process, you probably can run Indy with an off-the-shelf car...

I've had some insight in the aviation business, where every nut and screw is certified, and every company producing nuts and screws for the aviation business needs a certificate that basically says that the processes in this company are suitable for producing nuts and bolts for the use in aircraft (and other extreme lightweight uses). Extremely costly processes (both getting certified, as well as maintaining the needed standards). That's why spec racing series and customer racing programs like GT3 are so popular these days. The more of the same you can sell, the more likely is it you get your investmens back.
As well as the usual cost saving opportunities of serial production...

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Jason Fitch
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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Fri 19 May 2017 - 1:01

Richard Wilks wrote:
The main problem is not the cost of building anything per se. It's the current "corporate crap" racing environment. EVERYTHING must be "off the shelf" and as much specced as possible.

Dallara are making big money out of it, and they make sure they reward the people in charge of the "sport" accordingly. That's how motorsports go on about these days. Look at rallying, or touring cars, a bunch of spec transmissions and all that balanced by performance so it all gets nice and "cheap" and the parts manufacturers can keep their monopolies.


 Exactly, Plus with Dallara having a stranglehold on the sport. The argument for spec racing is it's cheaper, well go tell that to the IndyCar people. IndyCar finally, for last year or this year, began allowing teams to manufacture certain pieces of the cars themselves. Which is a Money saver, because Dallara is charging an arm and a leg for EVERYTHING. Also, since they're the sole supplier, they do things whenever they fell like it. Remember when Michael Shank tried to field a team a couple years ago? He couldn't because nobody had a spare chassis that he could use. "Why not just buy a new one?" you ask, well, he tried that Dallara told him OK, put a down payment on one, we might have it for you in a year, possibly 2. This was what started the teams to push for being able to in-house some of their stuff, Dallara wouldn't build anything unless they wanted to, including chassis. At that time, they had no plans for building any chassis unless they had an order for around 10 of them.

 But, this all also comes back to part of what I said before, we could open the rules to allow anyone to build a car, but nobody will because of the costs involved.

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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Fri 19 May 2017 - 10:01

3D view of Alonso car.
https://sketchfab.com/models/3e7ece89a3284110a40025edf0af73f2/embed
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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Fri 19 May 2017 - 10:18

Nicely done! I can't wait for the 2018, though. They said that it will be introduced in Indy, but there's been no talk about it lately.


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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Sat 20 May 2017 - 21:10

Quali underway, anyone watching?
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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Sat 20 May 2017 - 22:13

Nando in P3 :D
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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Sun 21 May 2017 - 0:16

Matthew Hull wrote:
Quali underway, anyone watching?

Super heavy crash by Bourdais...almost Gordon Smiley like...hope he is ok...at least he was moving in the car Shocked

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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Sun 21 May 2017 - 3:11

Too bad, too bad Crying or Very sad  Seb has a broken pelvis. Might be the end of his career... At least Nando looks happy





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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Sun 21 May 2017 - 8:12

Petr Hlavac wrote:
Too bad, too bad Crying or Very sad  Seb has a broken pelvis. Might be the end of his career... At least Nando looks happy





Really sad considering the pace he was going at and especially sad if it's a career ender. Seb has been on top form with Coyne this year.
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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Sun 21 May 2017 - 8:57

Classic no-no on an oval, he tried to countersteer Neutral  I am sure it was so quick he didn't even think about it, pure racer reaction. Let us hope for the best, this shouldn't mean the end of his career, other guys have broken pelvis and back and continued succesfully.

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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Sun 21 May 2017 - 10:29

for the "looks" like the early mid 80s with there ful skirt body

1982-1985 :D

they look so cool just like the 1982 f1 cars

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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Sun 21 May 2017 - 12:02

Alberto Ibañez wrote:
other guys have broken pelvis and back and continued succesfully.

But still, Seb is 38. A similar injury ended Franchitti's career at a similar age. Drivers like Aleshin who have recovered were much younger.
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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Sun 21 May 2017 - 12:29

Being 13 one would expect you to be more optimistic in life Suspect

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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Sun 21 May 2017 - 16:18

Matthew Hull wrote:
Alberto Ibañez wrote:
other guys have broken pelvis and back and continued succesfully.

But still, Seb is 38. A similar injury ended Franchitti's career at a similar age. Drivers like Aleshin who have recovered were much younger.

I think he will fully recover and will race again, but I wouldn't be surprised, if he never drives an Indycar again. At least on an oval. He never liked ovals, he's 38, a father of two. Driving an Indycar at 230mph simply might not be worth the risk anymore. I'd love to see him at LeMans, though.

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PostSubject: Re: 101st running of Indianapolis 500   Sun 21 May 2017 - 16:28

The comparisons to Gordon Smiley's accident are apt. Alberto is correct, he instinctively turned into the slide, which is a bad idea on an oval. He was very lucky that he hit the wall not quite head on. I was just as relieved as the announcers were to see him reach up for his visor. Lucky, lucky man.

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