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 Round 12-13 - Michigan (Nov 6th)

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Dana Schurer
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Age : 30
Location : Portland, OR, USA
Registration date : 2015-04-19

PostSubject: Re: Round 12-13 - Michigan (Nov 6th)   Tue 8 Nov 2016 - 4:15

Heat 1: Managed to keep with the lead pack through most of the race then, just as things were about to fall into place and put me out front, the caution came out and handed the race to those that still owed a stop. The admin decision to take results from the last lap of green flag running was certainly the right choice, though. It didn't do me any good but it makes sense in a "red flagged for rain" kind of way.

Heat 2: Watched the first few cars run away while I got caught up squabbling for the bottom of the top five. Then everything went wrong in the pits. As I approached my spot, I found Scott Urick parked in the active lane blocking my pitbox entry and made an emergency stop to keep from hitting him or overshooting my spot. That put Petr Hlavac in a bad position of having to abruptly weave around me (sorry, Petr!) then, to make matters much worse, Scott reversed hard into the front of my stopped(!) car.  Mad Damaged aero and suspension plus a ton of time lost in the pits made 8th feel like a blessing after that.

I can only hope returning to my home track next time out brings better luck. :smil20:

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Scott Urick
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PostSubject: Re: Round 12-13 - Michigan (Nov 6th)   Tue 8 Nov 2016 - 5:53

Dana, I was and am still very sorry about that pit stop in Heat 2. My car had been damaged, and while it had been fine on the track, it was unexpectedly dodgy to get slowed down in the pits. Plus, having lost so many spots pitting in Heat 1, I was trying to be as efficient as possible. But I was too hot and the box in front of me was occupied, so I swerved out to miss him. And I'm even more sorry about wrecking you (and then Petr) because I should have just rammed the SOB in the box in front of mine because he's the one that damaged my car!
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Scott Urick
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PostSubject: Re: Round 12-13 - Michigan (Nov 6th)   Tue 8 Nov 2016 - 8:34

For having a car that was sooooo strong, Michigan turned into an absolute nightmare!

Heat 1: Absolutely beautiful start! I got a jump on Jason White and so did David Sabre, Alberto was on the move down low. Made the first corner accelerating hard and came out of T2 in the clear. In the mirrors, I can see P2-4 dicing heavily. I kept my foot down and ran for my life. Pulled the gap out to 1.5 seconds and stuck her in cruise gear. I needed to make some fuel mileage to make it on one stop if there were no yellows.

The yellow waves. Damn! The field is back on my gear box. But cool! Now we've got the fuel to let it all hang out the rest of the way. Too early to pit.

Restart! Yellow flag. Hmmm.

Another restart. And we're off. Pull the gap out again and put back in cruise gear. Let's just save a little engine. In the meantime, Dana and Jukka are showing the Tier 1 boys how it's supposed to be done.

Around lap 25, another yellow. Still too early to pit, if we get no more yellow. Little did I know! A car or two jump in early, before joining the Pace Car. But it's not really a guess to know who I've got in my mirrors now.

Restart! Dana has it timed perfectly, gets to the outside. I hold her through T1-2. Jukka is right there waiting for his moment. We have one helluva battle for I don't know how many laps. That was the most fun I've had yet in here! They both were a class act in how clean they were to race with and I hope they can say the same about me.

I pull a small gap and eventually Dana peels off to pit. A lap later, Jukka is in. I screwed up and waited one lap to long. (Reveling in the lead, I guess.) I came in dead stick, coasting into the box. Didn't run out of fuel until I was on pit road, but it was still slow. I came back out in 13th.

Now, I'm not saving anything! I know I screwed up and I'm all out to get back what I can. The guys who stopped on lap 25 and now out front may need to pit again. I'm running mid 34s all by myself and finding position few and far between but I claw up to P10.

The infamous Lap 54 Caution. I'm P10, but then P11, P12, P13, and then up to P9 when cars peel off to the pits before forming behind the Pace Car. (You admins seeing a problem here?) Into T1 I roll up to Jukka and Dana (P7, P8) in time to see them get the wave around and off they go! The Pace Car holds me. WTF?

I've just effectively been screwed out of a lap! I am STEAMING! I pace for three laps, gnashing my teeth and watching the whole damned field line up behind but two miles ahead of me. So I pulled out to see if I was getting an erroneous solid yellow on my screen. Wouldn't be the first time something fucked up in this mod. As soon as I stuck JUST MY NOSE in front of the Pace Car, the game said "Stay behind the Pace Car". So I did.

And under those circumstances, they can take my "warning" and stick wherever it is least comfortable!

Restart. Nobody passes me. Yellow flag. Game scores me in P1. Pace out the rest of the race. In this case, I shouldn't have won the race. But the whole situation leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

The ruling was that I was ahead of the Pace Car, while it was on pit road, before taking the green flag after the Lap 54 Caution. That was the problem. "Problem" is there were at least three cars ahead of the Pace Car on pit road on EVERY restart in that race! So go back and figure out why I was held at P9 behind the Pace Car when it should pick up the leader!

Before this weekend we had to download a new version of the track for new .gdb to be installed. Did we have a problem with that in the 200? AND, we go BACK to pits open even before the field forms on the Pace Car when the yellow is waved. I seem to remember that being a problem at Pocono.

In addition, after the Heat 1 debacle, an arbitrary decision is made to forego cautions at all. And that sucks after one has spent time to build a car and strategy to the "advertised" rules for the event. And it turned the race into a free-for-all.

Ironclad solutions for ALL of these problems have been offered AND GIVEN in good faith gestures to aid in development of this mod. But for "pride of ownership" or whatever reason they have been rebuffed.

Heat 2: I was only in it because I was pissed about what had transpired and was determined to succeed regardless. For that I have already apologized to Dana and Petr. The rest needs to be taken up privately.
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Alberto Ibaņez
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PostSubject: Re: Round 12-13 - Michigan (Nov 6th)   Tue 8 Nov 2016 - 10:23

Quote :
Ironclad solutions for ALL of these problems have been offered AND GIVEN in good faith gestures to aid in development of this mod. But for "pride of ownership" or whatever reason they have been rebuffed.

I don't think we can be accused of "pride of ownership" after having changed so many things in the rules seeking for a solution and asked 3rd parties like you. FYI the settings you gave us from another league have a value of ZERO when you do not know what the settings the server PLR file of that league had (Which overrides them).

But since you don't seem to know that, it is obviously easier to insult us in the forum publically like this:

Quote :
" they can take my "warning" and stick wherever it is least comfortable!"

I will not get down to that level, but instead the only thing I can say under these circumstances is:

If you dislike this league so much, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

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"There are two kind of oval racers, those who have hit the wall and those who will hit it" - Mario Andretti

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Scott Urick
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PostSubject: Re: Round 12-13 - Michigan (Nov 6th)   Tue 8 Nov 2016 - 14:24

Alberto Ibaņez wrote:
Quote :
Ironclad solutions for ALL of these problems have been offered AND GIVEN in good faith gestures to aid in development of this mod. But for "pride of ownership" or whatever reason they have been rebuffed.

I don't think we can be accused of "pride of ownership" after having changed so many things in the rules seeking for a solution and asked 3rd parties like you. FYI the settings you gave us from another league have a value of ZERO when you do not know what the settings the server PLR file of that league had (Which overrides them).

But since you don't seem to know that, it is obviously easier to insult us in the forum publically like this:

Quote :
" they can take my "warning" and stick wherever it is least comfortable!"

I will not get down to that level, but instead the only thing I can say under these circumstances is:

If you dislike this league so much, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

That is completely inaccurate, Alberto, and you damned well know it! You never asked. I volunteered it. And I didn't get it from another league, I built it for a series we were hosting! So the .plr on the server has very little to do with it. Hey, wait a minute. Maybe the .plr should be looked at! Not turning yellows on or off, or opening the pits at different times, or jacking with the .gdb of an already proven track.

When I submitted the info, I begged for a meeting on TS to discuss and consult. I was blown off by Jason saying it would be historically inaccurate (well, not without adjusting the values to what you require, duh) and then, "we don't want to make any big changes in the middle of the season". And in a hand full of days, you tell me the CART98 rules set has been implemented. I should have known when we got no new updates. And looking at the current .rfm, there is nothing even remotely similar to the way the CART98 (or CARTFactor) rules were laid out!

I even offered to fix the .rfm and set up a test server for the admins to come test, to see that it works. I even offered to be the crash test dummy to test the mod's behavior under yellow -- at whatever time was desired. But a couple hours of the admins' time was too much to ask! It's so goddamned simple, but the people who have offered up 13 races with very few clean outcomes still refuse to listen to options. So asking 3rd parties my ass!

As for my "insult", I was cheated out of potentially nine laps of racing for additional positions due to a "glitch"! So, in checking to confirm my placement, I earn a warning. I asked for a chance to be heard during the break and was told in the chat by Richard "two minutes, Scott, we're having an admin meeting". I waited in TS for 10 minutes and watched you guys have your meeting in another channel. Then the three of you just signed off. I wasn't gonna lobby for my "victory" to stand, just to explain what happened from my seat.

We must stand by the results at Ontario "because of the effort put in by the people who finished" after half the field was penalized and ten DQ'd, but, "after watching the replay", we will adjust the results of Heat 1 at Michigan not once but twice, because we just aren't sure where the problem arose.

Watching the replay is very good at adjudicating driving infractions. And of that, I am guilty as charged, for what it's worth. But I had to see if I was laboring under some faulty flag signal and losing a lap that I could make up. So be it.

But watching the replay is no solution for fixing the ills of the mod. It merely gives you a place to start looking. Ontario had track issues, but we didn't look at those. We changed the .gdb and then the pit rules for a track that had done OK before. We see a driver drop a sector or two in the timing loop, so we assume that driver's connection, or maybe others', are upsetting rFactor dealing with oval racing. But we never consider that the beautiful but ludicrously, graphically OBESE, scratch made tracks, scrambled to completion with no optimization in order to meet the season schedule, might actually be choking the server! Hell, Jason even told me he has is display setting turned down to only 10 cars visible in order to keep his frame rates acceptable.

This mod is phenomenal! But race after race, we see one or more of the same group of problems. Then we see one or more of the same old short-sighted solutions. Then we recycle the same old group of problems. Maybe it's time for a different approach.

So, Alberto, you tell me. If it's not "pride of ownership", what would it be? An unwillingness to actually dig in the try to fix the problems while we focus on building new mods for HSO that we can put our names on? A general denial that the series still has root problems to be fixed? Or just plain old incompetence?
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Lee Simpson
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Age : 68
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Registration date : 2015-01-12

PostSubject: Re: Round 12-13 - Michigan (Nov 6th)   Tue 8 Nov 2016 - 15:18

Heat 1.  Pit stop strategy worked well, even with the yellows, allowing me a 7th place finish in this "rain shortened" race.  Other than that lucky circumstance I was racing with the back of the pack.  Thanks to Jukka Maattanen for the setup help.  Much faster than my last outing at Michigan, but obviously not yet fast enough.

Heat 2. Strangely, I enjoyed this no yellow sprint race.  I knew racing alone my thirsty Offy would require two stops so I wanted to draft as much as possible. I hooked up with a faster Martin Lacina after the first round of stops and rode his tail for many, many laps. Drafting wasn't enough and I had to grab a splash of fuel at the end dropping a few places as my crew diligently repaired some unexpected damage.

Thanks to the Admins who made this race happen!  This is an amazing race series.


Last edited by Lee Simpson on Tue 8 Nov 2016 - 15:54; edited 1 time in total
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Guillaume Siebert
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PostSubject: Re: Round 12-13 - Michigan (Nov 6th)   Tue 8 Nov 2016 - 15:32

Scott, you might be right or wrong I don't know, I am not involved in this series. But before saying any harsh word about the admins, try to remember they are doing this for free, on their free time, solely for you guys and by passion. Without them, nothing here would happen. I don't think this deserves what you said.

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Alberto Ibaņez
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Location : Valencia - Spain
Registration date : 2010-09-17

PostSubject: Re: Round 12-13 - Michigan (Nov 6th)   Tue 8 Nov 2016 - 16:31

Quote :
That is completely inaccurate, Alberto, and you damned well know it! You never asked. I volunteered it.

I got your settings over Jason, and I thought (maybe erroneously) that he had asked you about them because you had mentioned you had used some in the VHR mod. We checked and tested them, but could not see a difference, and because we know that the PLR settings matter it did not solve our problem.

Quote :
Hey, wait a minute. Maybe the .plr should be looked at! Not turning yellows on or off, or opening the pits at different times, or jacking with the .gdb of an already proven track.

When we hosted the CART98 series last year, we found out that it was the PLR file what was causing some effects we could not explain before. Martin and JP spent a good amount of hours testing all that, but none of them is active nowadays here so we could not consult them for more details. And BTW we used a custom HSO CART rfm, so no wonder if you compare the original one with our USAC one it looks different. The original file gave us loads of problems.

Quote :
I was blown off by Jason saying it would be historically inaccurate (well, not without adjusting the values to what you require, duh) and then, "we don't want to make any big changes in the middle of the season".

What you talk with Jason is not always what we get to know in the end, as Jason obviously can't come inmediately to report exactly your words. He filters the info, same as Richard or me do when we talk with other people and report later to the fellow admins. You might also not always get to know what we talk about etc. And finally, please note that we are real persons with real life, real jobs and real kids, so we won't always have the time to test what we want or arrange TS speaks or tests, especially with people in the US time zone.

Quote :
As for my "insult", I was cheated out of potentially nine laps of racing for additional positions due to a "glitch"! So, in checking to confirm my placement, I earn a warning.

An insult is an insult. Wether you are right on your claim or not is something different, but as long you can get the same message across without an insult, the insult becomes unnecessary and offensive. 

But you are right about having unfairly received a warning. You should have been suspended for one race for damaging Dana's car stupidly while reversing in the pits. We should have never atenuated the penalty by considering the circumstances of the race penalties having an effect on the drivers. 

Quote :
I waited in TS for 10 minutes and watched you guys have your meeting in another channel. Then the three of you just signed off. I wasn't gonna lobby for my "victory" to stand, just to explain what happened from my seat.

The meeting was centered in what to do with heat 2, yellows or no yellows, qualy order from heat 1 or finish order from heat 2. Not to discuss the results of heat 1, since we knew we would have to do further investigation.

Quote :
But we never consider that the beautiful but ludicrously, graphically OBESE, scratch made tracks, scrambled to completion with no optimization in order to meet the season schedule, might actually be choking the server!

ISI Jacksonville: 257.489 faces

HSO Michigan 73: 307.550 faces

VLM Mid Ohio: 428.253 faces and we raced there with no problems last year

JP Indy: 1.351.172 faces Shocked and we raced there with no problems.

The tracks can be optimized, but it's hard to say that this is the reason of the bugs. In any case, I find it funny that on one hand you just insist on us using your magic settings while on the other you tell us it's the tracks that screw it all. What good are your settings in that case? Rolling Eyes


Quote :
Then we see one or more of the same old short-sighted solutions. Then we recycle the same old group of problems. Maybe it's time for a different approach.

We have tried settings from other mods that worked (CART) and different settings for our own one. Are you saying that the only not short-sighted solution is trying the (incomplete as the PLR file settings are missing) settings that worked for you on other tracks, with another mod? Is that long sighted, or just a long shot?

Quote :
An unwillingness to actually dig in the try to fix the problems while we focus on building new mods for HSO that we can put our names on? A general denial that the series still has root problems to be fixed? Or just plain old incompetence?

We had no problems in the first races, so before throwing everything to the dust bin it was only logical to try first to retouch some settings and second to revert to settings that worked with another mod we have used in the past.

But anyway, you can have your money back whenever you want if you are not satisfied with the product and believe it was too expensive.

_________________
"There are two kind of oval racers, those who have hit the wall and those who will hit it" - Mario Andretti



Last edited by Alberto Ibaņez on Tue 8 Nov 2016 - 20:50; edited 1 time in total
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Jan Kowalski
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PostSubject: Re: Round 12-13 - Michigan (Nov 6th)   Tue 8 Nov 2016 - 18:08

guys, just relax. Its a game, and we should all be happy about the mod work and the HSO organisation for all these races. If there are differiences in solving problems or decisions its not appropriate to discuss this in public. Technical issues are a part of online races and the DQ were a problem in the last races. But lets try to solve these problems together. And keep in mind, there will be always a next race for another chance for a clean race. I like this league because of all the friendly help given by HSO members concerning setups, settings and other things.

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Jason Fitch
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Registration date : 2015-04-18

PostSubject: Re: Round 12-13 - Michigan (Nov 6th)   Tue 8 Nov 2016 - 18:46


Heat 1: I had a simple plan at the start, follow Dana to the front, more specifically, let her drag me to the front. Unfortunately, I had an iffy first few laps and she took off into the distance. So settled down and just tried to work my way up and keep an eye on the fuel issue. Prior to and during the first part of the race, my mindset was focused on "I need 2 stops" unfortunately, and this has happened to me before, I was too focused on needing 2 stops so that when the first Yellow flew I saw my opportunity to get my "Splash and Go" out of the way. As I headed down Pit road, I realized I was all by myself and that I might have just screwed up. Turns out I did, because not only did I NOT need to make that stop, but I still had to make another one. From then on I knew I was screwed and could only hope for the best. I did manage to lead some laps though.

Heat 2: With no yellows and the same lineup I decided to try my original plan again. I got a better start this time, but I soon lost Dana in a shuffle of cars. I tried to spend as much time drafting as possible trying to save fuel. I ran as long as I could before the first stop and once out and back up to speed I realized I was probably going to need another stop. Enter Raul, I tucked in behind him and stayed there for what seemed like half the race. We ran down a few cars for position and my lap gauge was slowly going up, I was actually making fuel! When he peeled off down Pit road himself I had made it up to 4th, and my lap counter said I was only going to be about .1-.2 of a lap short. I could see a podium, if not outright win in the mix. Unfortunately the counter began going down as I ran by myself and I was forced to pit I took the White flag on Pit Road. I only dropped 1 position in the pit's and ended up 5th. So all in all, I'll take it.


I will conclude with, I've sent my concerns and thoughts to the guys in a PM, as I don't think this is the place to be discussing them. I was also VERY concerned with the level of Spatial Awareness and General manner of driving of some people, specifically those in slower cars. I saw A LOT of very erratic driving under Caution and outright blocking at speed. I was forced to pass a considerably slower car at speed on the Apron of the Front Straight because he blocked me trying to move to his inside to make a clean pass. He came from near the wall at the exit of turn 4 all the way down to the line and just held it there, my choice was to either back out and lose the draft, hit him and damage my car, try to move right and most likely lose it and crash, or keep going and pass him on the apron. I chose the latter as the safest course of action. He finally moved up off the line when it was clear I was going by him down there. I don't believe it was caused by unfamiliarity with the car, I firmly believe it was someone trying desperately to keep from being passed. Because we've heard multiple complaints from other people, rest assured if it happens again, I will be demanding action be taken by the admins.

Aside from that one issue of bad driving, everyone else ran a Straight up and great race. Heat 1, I had Richard on my tail for the entire time I was leading, never once did he try and pass me, just kept tucked in and we motored around passing all and sundry. Heat 2, I did the same with Raul, ended up pushing him a few times down the back straight.

Looking forward to Trenton, Dana and I have some unfinished business there, and I have been handicapped slightly, so time for some serious setup work to happen.

_________________


"On the first day at St. Jovite, I was following Paul Hawkins up the back straight...and Paul Hawkins car took off, his Lola T70. It went upside down and when it landed it did 360's down the road, and Hawkins was upside down and trapped in the thing...So I stopped and a bunch of us got to the car...and we hoisted it up and got it back on it's wheels and he got out of it. He looked back and where he'd taken off, it was way back, 150 yards or more. He looked at the car and he looked way back and he looked at the car and then he said "F@%k"...and that was the story of the Can-Am" -Sam Posey
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Alberto Ibaņez
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PostSubject: Re: Round 12-13 - Michigan (Nov 6th)   Tue 8 Nov 2016 - 20:16

Quote :
I was also VERY concerned with the level of Spatial Awareness and General manner of driving of some people, specifically those in slower cars. I saw A LOT of very erratic driving under Caution and outright blocking at speed.

Well, this is not the average US league that has been doing oval racing for years. Instead, this championship has been for many people the first (or at least the first serious) oval racingexperience, and it happened with cars that are quite hard to drive. Considering that, and seeing how the level has improved from the start of the season, I am quite happy and would like to congratulate our drivers in general. But of course, there are still people learning and others coming new, which sometimes shows. I believe that many of the complaints logged by drivers come from misunderstanding about how to oval race, and it is perfectly normal in people who usually do road racing.

But I tell you something, I would rather oval race any day with the great and enthusiastic guys here than with many experienced ones that act as real dicks in the forum and the track. :frank:

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Scott Urick
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PostSubject: Re: Round 12-13 - Michigan (Nov 6th)   Thu 10 Nov 2016 - 9:03

Alberto Ibaņez wrote:
But I tell you something, I would rather oval race any day with the great and enthusiastic guys here than with many experienced ones that act as real dicks in the forum and the track. :frank:

"An insult is an insult. Wether you are right on your claim or not is something different, but as long you can get the same message across without an insult, the insult becomes unnecessary and offensive." -- Alberto Ibanez
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Alberto Ibaņez
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PostSubject: Re: Round 12-13 - Michigan (Nov 6th)   Thu 10 Nov 2016 - 9:23

It wasn't meant to be directed at you, I was more thinking about iRacing and some other leagues scratch

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"There are two kind of oval racers, those who have hit the wall and those who will hit it" - Mario Andretti

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Scott Urick
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PostSubject: Re: Round 12-13 - Michigan (Nov 6th)   Fri 11 Nov 2016 - 8:27

Guillaume Siebert wrote:
Scott, you might be right or wrong I don't know, I am not involved in this series. But before saying any harsh word about the admins, try to remember they are doing this for free, on their free time, solely for you guys and by passion. Without them, nothing here would happen. I don't think this deserves what you said.

Guillaume, I completely and sincerely appreciate that. And what you said is 100% correct!

So, for the record, I apologize for my tone to the administrators, and for using in the public forum. And I apologize to the other participants for making them suffer it.

This is still the best mod I have seen in a long time, and the admins still have my full support. Hence my heightened passion in participating. The frustration with finally having a dominant car and then having it all go south was overwhelming. I obviously should have given it more time before commenting.

I lay my sword at your feet.
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Alberto Ibaņez
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PostSubject: Re: Round 12-13 - Michigan (Nov 6th)   Fri 11 Nov 2016 - 11:28

Apologizes heartly accepted, I tried myself to stay calm and reply with a founded arguments but if you felt somehow attacked, in turn please accept mines. We put much effort in the mod and in the series, it's been frustrating for all of us involved - ironically the rest of drivers are generally enjoying the season and accept better the problems. Thanks you all for your good spirit and support!

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"There are two kind of oval racers, those who have hit the wall and those who will hit it" - Mario Andretti

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